Pathological Lying Revisited

Pathological Lying is a process and structure that is widely manifest in our culture but it’s pathology has not been researched with success. A pathology will reduce to one source. Hence this may not even be the correct methodology. Generally speaking the more severe the issue the more likely the abnormality is genetically inherited rather than learned socially.

The issue of clergy abuse and it’s sanitization are an interesting point of departure in the consideration of Pathological Lying.

Bhakta David Nollmeyer 

Charles C. Dike, MD, MRCPsych, MPH, Madelon Baranoski, PhD and Ezra E. H. Griffith, MD

Although pathological lying was first described in the medical literature over 100 years ago, it remains a poorly understood concept. Psychiatrists continue to grapple with the full ramifications of the condition, even though interest specifically in pathological lying seems to have waned in recent times. The impact of pathological lying deserves critical attention from forensic psychiatrists because of the implications that untruths have in a legal context. In this article, the authors review the considerable vagueness and confusion that has surrounded this concept and examine the extent to which a person can control lying behavior and the related question of whether pathological liars have responsibility for their actions. While providing a structured framework for considering pathological lying in the forensic context, the authors conclude that further systematic research is needed to resolve the questions raised in this article.

In August 2001, the State of California Commission on Judicial Performance ordered the removal from office of Judge Patrick  Couwenberg for making misrepresentations to become a judge, continuing to make misrepresentations while a judge, and deliberately providing false information to the Commission in the course of its investigation.¹ The judge had lied at various times to judges, attorneys, a newspaper reporter, and the Commission on Judicial Performance. He told the Commission, under oath, that he had participated in covert CIA operations in Southeast Asia and Africa and that he had a master’s degree in psychology when, in reality, he had never been in the CIA nor did he have a degree in psychology. He had committed many other misrepresentations, including stating that he had received a Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Vietnam and dramatically reporting that shrapnel was still lodged in his groin. In reality, he was never in Vietnam during the war.¹

A psychiatrist expert witness testifying before a panel of three judges sitting as special masters investigating Judge Couwenberg concluded that the judge was suffering from pseudologia fantastica which he described as “story telling that often has sort of a matrix of fantasy interwoven with some facts” (Ref. 1, p 10). The expert further testified that pseudologia fantastica is treatable with therapy and did not render Judge Couwenberg unfit for judicial service. The basis for the conclusions regarding treatment and fitness for judicial service was not stated in the reference article and therefore is not available for review.

Cases like Judge Couwenberg’s continue to emerge from time to time. Recent media articles chronicling the lying behavior of prominent men such as Joseph J. Ellis,² a Pulitzer Prize winning historian and professor of history at Mount Holyoke College; Jeffery Archer,³ member of the House of Lords of England; and Sir Laurens Van der Post,⁴ former spiritual adviser to Prince Charles and godfather to Prince William, have generated significant interest. A former student of Professor Ellis, upon learning of his mentor’s lies was quoted as saying, “He seemed so genuine. Perhaps it was a fantasy he came to believe himself” (Ref. 5, p A12). This observation raised important questions: did the just-named individuals consciously and willfully engage in spewing their lies or were they unable to control their lying?

The concept of pathological lying, in which an individual repeatedly and apparently compulsively tells false stories, is not new to psychiatry. Numerous articles were written on it in the first half of the 20th century. However, interest in it waned drastically, to the extent that in recent years, it has received very little mention. Yet, the relatively modest light shed on pathological lying in recent psychiatric literature may not reflect its true prevalence in the pathology encountered routinely by clinical psychiatrists. Rather, it may be that psychiatrists simply know little about the subject and have difficulty recognizing the phenomenon.

Lies have been written about and classified for centuries. However, as noted by Healy and Healy,⁶ it was a German physician (Dr. Delbruck) who first clearly described the concept of pathological lying after an extensive examination of lies told by five of his patients. He concluded that these lies were so abnormal and out of proportion that they deserved a special category, which he described as pseudologia phantastica, terminology that is used interchangeably with pseudologia fantastica, which may be an Americanized spelling. Pathological lying, pseudologia fantastica, mythomania and morbid lying are generally used interchangeably, although it remains debatable whether they all describe the same phenomenon. Indeed, Bursten’s⁷ description of Manipulative Personality shows characteristics similar to those of pathological lying. Nevertheless, for the purpose of this article, we make no distinction among the terms just described. In addition, we confine our discussion to the narrow phenomenon of pathological lying and do not consider the broader concept of lying. The latter subject has been the object of considerable discussion.

Many articles have variously defined pseudologia fantastica, but a commonly quoted definition is that put forth by Healy and Healy⁸ who described it as “falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, manifesting over a period of years or even a lifetime, in the absence of definite insanity, feeblemindedness or epilepsy” (Ref. 8, p 1). While this is a very comprehensive definition, it raises the question of whether definite insanity, feeblemindedness, or epilepsy must be absent for lying to be considered pathological.

Selling disagreed. He believed that “obvious mental disease, particularly a diagnosable psychopathic personality of some type” (Ref. 9, p 336) was responsible for pseudologia fantastica.

While no consensus definition for pathological lying currently exists in the literature, the identified functional elements of the phenomenon are: the repeated utterance of untruths; the lies are often repeated over a period of years, with the lies eventually becoming a lifestyle; material reward or social advantage does not appear to be the primary motivating force but the lying is an end in itself; an inner dynamic rather than an external reason drives the lies, but when an external reason is suspected, the lies are far in excess of the suspected external reason; the lies are often woven into complex narratives.

^…

Pseudologia fantastica was therefore described as a fantasy lie, a daydream communicated as reality, in which the lie can be a gratification in itself, for pleasure only and not for any other obvious gain.²⁰ It was described as an intermediary phase between psychic health and neurosis.²⁰ The notion of “double consciousness,” in which two forms of life run side by side, the actual and the desired, and the desired becomes preponderant and decisive, has been proposed as the mechanism underlying pathological lying.²¹ It has also been suggested that the mental processes similar to those forming the basis of the impulse to literary creation in normal people is the foundation of the morbid romances and fantasies of those with pseudologia fantastica.²² The impulse that forces the fabrication of stories is supposedly bound up with the desire to play the role of the person depicted; fiction and real life are not separated. Further support for intact reality testing in pseudologia fantastica is the proposition that pseudologues usually have sound judgment in other matters, an observation that makes it difficult to prove that the pseudologue does not know that what he or she is doing is wrong.

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/3/342

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Indian News Exposes ISKCON

Defection Under Totalitarianism

Much of Gaudiya Vaishnava preaching is universal and does not concern the particular. We are always told that the truth is ABSOLUTE and we will return to Godhead.

We should never lose site of these simple universal precepts.

Arjuna however overcame his doubts about killing his own family and chose to fight a war against his dynastic family.

Here the world has experience a Singularity concerning censor and sanitizing a Chemical Assault – Scorched Earth. This is being carried out by the United States for a manifest time since 1987 and dates much earlier.

The allegation is that the United Kingdom authored such.

Recently Presidential candidate Rick Perry stated that US Marines who are implicated on urinating on dead Taliban fighters are only kids.

Anyone who has experienced first hand the Chemical Assault – Scorched Earth in California or about 45 others states realizes being sprayed by chemicals or eating contaminated food is irrational and equivalent to torture.

President Barack Obama is 50 and Rick Santorum is 53. The writing on the wall states that those born in 1955 and later who are sworn officials have the strongest chance of being prosecuted in a Nuremberg styled trial.

I am along the Colorado River near Blythe CA – Ehrenberg AZ and it feels like someone has urinated on the human race.

Nectar of Devotion

“The Complete Science of Bhakti-Yoga #3″

72/10/24 Vrndavana

So by this devotional process, adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah, that love… Sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15].

There are stages, or steps, one after another, if we practice. Sadhu-sange, sato vrtteh sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati. Srila Rupa Gosvami says that potent love for Krsna can be reinstated again, invoked again, by the prescribed method. Sadhu-sange sato vrtteh sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati. Utsahan dhairyat niscayat. When you get little taste of love of Krsna… Just like we are sitting here. We have got little taste for loving Krsna. Otherwise, why we should waste our time in this way? This is called sraddha. So this sraddha is also invoked by association with sadhu, devotees. Then, if we little become enthusiastic… Just like you have become. Utsahan. You have left your country, everything, and you are going everywhere, coming with me. Not for any material profit, but for increasing your Krsna consciousness. This is called utsahan, enthusiasm. Our whole Krsna consciousness movement is depending on this enthusiasm. Just like I went to your country. At the age of seventy years, nobody goes out of home. But there was enthusiasm, “Yes, I must go.” And because I went, there is something. You have got the information. Similarly, enthusiasm is the basic principle, adau.

Utsahan dhairyat. By patience. Not that “I am working so hard for Krsna, but I’m not getting any impetus.” No. Don’t be impatient. Krsna will give you chance. He’s giving chance always, twenty-four hours, imperceptibly. But we cannot appreciate very much. Krsna sees. As far as we are able, according to our strength, He gives responsibility. But we must be… Rest assured, when we have taken shelter of the lotus feet of Krsna fully, without any reservation, Krsna must be pleased; maybe it will take some time. This is called niscayad, certainty, assurance. Utsahan dhairyat niscayad tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. You have to execute the routine prescribed duties. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. You cannot go against the principles of devotional service. With patience, you must execute. Tat-tat-pravartanat. Sato vrtteh. Sato vrtteh means dealings must be very honest. No duplicity. Very frank, plain. Sato vrtteh, sadhu-sange, and in association of devotees. Sadbhir bhaktir pranasya…, uh, prasidhyati. In this way, our propensity for, of love for Krsna will increase.

Similarly, there are other six methods. Prajalpa niyamagraha.

atyaharah prayasas ca
prajalpo niyamagrahah
jana-sangas ca, laulyam jana-sangas ca
sadbhir bhaktih pranasyati
[NoI 2]

Atyahara, eating or collecting more than necessity. That is atyahara. Ahara means eating and collecting. Aharah. So we should not collect more than what we need. Krsna will give, giving us. Just like we are spending so much money in all our centers. So Krsna is sending us the necessary expenditure. How… Otherwise, how we are maintaining? So… But we should not be hankering after collecting more than what is necessity. That is atyahara. Similarly, we should not eat more than what we need for maintaining the body and soul together. Atyahara prayasah, prayasah. We should not endeavor for anything which requires too much anxiety. That is called prayasah. Atyahara prayasah. Automatically, by Krsna’s grace, whatever comes, that’s all right. Atyaharah prayasas ca prajalpah [NoI 2]. Talking unnecessarily, nonsense. Just like people waste their time talking three hours on some political situation. You see. They have got enough time to discuss newspaper, but when they are invited to our class, they find no time.

So we should not waste our time, a single moment. Time is very valuable. In your country, they say, “Time is money.” So either you take money, that is artha, or paramartha. Money is required in the material world, and in spiritual world, paramartha, spiritual asset. Some way or other, even those who are materialists, they do not waste their time. So we are after spiritual realization. How we can waste our time? Time is very valuable. So we should not waste time. Prajalpo niyamagrahah, jana-sangas ca. And associating with ordinary persons who are not devotees. Jana-sangas. People in general, they have no taste for Krsna. And greediness, laulyam. These things are impediments for advancing in Krsna consciousness. Sadbhir bhaktih. Niya…, niyamagrahah. Niyamagrahah means simply busy to follow the rules, but actually do not understand what is the meaning of such following. Not blindly. One should follow the regulative principles with firm conviction and understanding. Niyama agrahah and niyama-agrahah. Agrahah means eagerness to accept. And agrahah, not accepting. In both ways, niyama grahah. Not to accept the regulative principles, that is also faulty. And too much agraha, false agraha, without knowing the meaning of it, that is also faulty. So niyamagrahah.

atyahara prayasas ca
prajalpo niyamagrahah
laulyam jana-sangas ca
sadbhir bhaktih pranasyati

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Nectar of Devotion

“The Complete Science of Bhakti-Yoga #3″

72/10/24 Vrndavana

So by this devotional process, adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah, that love… Sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15].

There are stages, or steps, one after another, if we practice. Sadhu-sange, sato vrtteh sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati. Srila Rupa Gosvami says that potent love for Krsna can be reinstated again, invoked again, by the prescribed method. Sadhu-sange sato vrtteh sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati. Utsahan dhairyat niscayat. When you get little taste of love of Krsna… Just like we are sitting here. We have got little taste for loving Krsna. Otherwise, why we should waste our time in this way? This is called sraddha. So this sraddha is also invoked by association with sadhu, devotees. Then, if we little become enthusiastic… Just like you have become. Utsahan. You have left your country, everything, and you are going everywhere, coming with me. Not for any material profit, but for increasing your Krsna consciousness. This is called utsahan, enthusiasm. Our whole Krsna consciousness movement is depending on this enthusiasm. Just like I went to your country. At the age of seventy years, nobody goes out of home. But there was enthusiasm, “Yes, I must go.” And because I went, there is something. You have got the information. Similarly, enthusiasm is the basic principle, adau.

Utsahan dhairyat. By patience. Not that “I am working so hard for Krsna, but I’m not getting any impetus.” No. Don’t be impatient. Krsna will give you chance. He’s giving chance always, twenty-four hours, imperceptibly. But we cannot appreciate very much. Krsna sees. As far as we are able, according to our strength, He gives responsibility. But we must be… Rest assured, when we have taken shelter of the lotus feet of Krsna fully, without any reservation, Krsna must be pleased; maybe it will take some time. This is called niscayad, certainty, assurance. Utsahan dhairyat niscayad tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. You have to execute the routine prescribed duties. Tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. You cannot go against the principles of devotional service. With patience, you must execute. Tat-tat-pravartanat. Sato vrtteh. Sato vrtteh means dealings must be very honest. No duplicity. Very frank, plain. Sato vrtteh, sadhu-sange, and in association of devotees. Sadbhir bhaktir pranasya…, uh, prasidhyati. In this way, our propensity for, of love for Krsna will increase.

Similarly, there are other six methods. Prajalpa niyamagraha.

atyaharah prayasas ca
prajalpo niyamagrahah
jana-sangas ca, laulyam jana-sangas ca
sadbhir bhaktih pranasyati
[NoI 2]

Atyahara, eating or collecting more than necessity. That is atyahara. Ahara means eating and collecting. Aharah. So we should not collect more than what we need. Krsna will give, giving us. Just like we are spending so much money in all our centers. So Krsna is sending us the necessary expenditure. How… Otherwise, how we are maintaining? So… But we should not be hankering after collecting more than what is necessity. That is atyahara. Similarly, we should not eat more than what we need for maintaining the body and soul together. Atyahara prayasah, prayasah. We should not endeavor for anything which requires too much anxiety. That is called prayasah. Atyahara prayasah. Automatically, by Krsna’s grace, whatever comes, that’s all right. Atyaharah prayasas ca prajalpah [NoI 2]. Talking unnecessarily, nonsense. Just like people waste their time talking three hours on some political situation. You see. They have got enough time to discuss newspaper, but when they are invited to our class, they find no time.

So we should not waste our time, a single moment. Time is very valuable. In your country, they say, “Time is money.” So either you take money, that is artha, or paramartha. Money is required in the material world, and in spiritual world, paramartha, spiritual asset. Some way or other, even those who are materialists, they do not waste their time. So we are after spiritual realization. How we can waste our time? Time is very valuable. So we should not waste time. Prajalpo niyamagrahah, jana-sangas ca. And associating with ordinary persons who are not devotees. Jana-sangas. People in general, they have no taste for Krsna. And greediness, laulyam. These things are impediments for advancing in Krsna consciousness. Sadbhir bhaktih. Niya…, niyamagrahah. Niyamagrahah means simply busy to follow the rules, but actually do not understand what is the meaning of such following. Not blindly. One should follow the regulative principles with firm conviction and understanding. Niyama agrahah and niyama-agrahah. Agrahah means eagerness to accept. And agrahah, not accepting. In both ways, niyama grahah. Not to accept the regulative principles, that is also faulty. And too much agraha, false agraha, without knowing the meaning of it, that is also faulty. So niyamagrahah.

atyahara prayasas ca
prajalpo niyamagrahah
laulyam jana-sangas ca
sadbhir bhaktih pranasyati

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David Bruce Hughes

David Bruce Hughes is an independent diksa guru who has fell under scrutiny for allegedly starting a tantric sex club among devotees. It appears there is some relevancy to these claims as Hughes has made a video and addressed some of the issues at hand.

Here Hughes confirms that his siddhanta is similar to the sahijayas. If this is the case mainstream Gaudiya Vaishnavas folowing under Bhaktivinoda – Saraswati – Prabhupada should steer clear of interpretations that portray the gopis as havimg mundane conjugal relationships with Krishna in the sense the jivas in material life enjoy sex life.

It appears that Hughes has engaged in same sex practices also.

Under these conditions LAPD has accused  me of condoning or supporting these actions which is not the case.

If one is concerned with the actions of David Bruce Hughes I would proceed with caution do to the aforementioned reasons.

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Eminent Madhva Sampradaya Scholars Support Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik-System

This is a reprint of an old VNN article. Here the Madhva Sampradaya supports the July 9 Final Order as establishing a shastric based system of initiation.

By:  Iskcontimes

BANGALORE, INDIA, Jan 28 (VNN) — When we (devotees at ISKCON Bangalore) came to know that HG Basugosh Prabhu, was arranging a conference of Madhvas & Srivaishnava Scholars to discuss the guru issue, we vehemently opposed. As we found no authorization from Srila Prabhupada for such an exercise.

We see HG Basugosh Prabhus’ postings are misleading devotees around the world by his one sided presentation.

However, since the exercise has begun we find it only appropriate to present the response of these scholars what they actually say on this issue after objectively presenting the guru issue to them.

HG Vidvan Gauranga Das had written in one of the postings on Chakra about these scholars:

‘Vidyavachaspati’ Bannanje Govindachar: Disciple of Vidyamanya Tirtha Swami, Mathadhisa of Palimara Matha. He is a very prominent lecturer and scholar, recognized by the 8 mathas. Bannanje Govindachar, the Maadhva devotee-scholar was awarded the title: ‘Vidyaa-vaachaspati’ by one of the 8 Madhva-mathas.

Sri Sri Rangapriya Swami Desikachar: A broad-minded Sri Vaishnava scholar and sannyasi. He was previously a professor in National College, Bangalore. He is a Sanskrit scholar. He has disciples who come from Smaarta, Sri Vaishnava and Maadhva backgrounds.

(for the information of the readers, these two above mentioned scholars were not invited to the conference by HG Basugosh Prabhu!)

The following was a short interview with HH Rangapriya Swami:

Question: According to Srila Prabhupada’s letter of July 9^th, 1977, if we accept Srila Prabhupada as the diksa guru and receive initiation from the ritviks, is this system in accordance to sastric principles, what is your holiness’ opinion?

HH Rangapriya Swami: It appears from the system of initiation that Srila Prabhupada has proposed in his letter of July 9th 1977, that he wished to remain the diksha-acharya, vanquish sinful reactions of the disciples, take the responsibility of delivering his disciples and this way continue the parampara through the rtviks. This is a new system. Since such new systems have been created in the past by the acaryas, it appears that Srila Prabhupada desired such a system. This is our humble opinion and it is not in violation of any shastric principles.

Question: Do we have to fear that the Parampara will stop if we follow the ritvik system?

HH Rangapriya Swami: By this system we do not have to fear that the parampara may stop. The rtviks belong to his parampara. The new disciples also belong to his parampara. Who ever follows his instructions also belong to his parampara. His books will represent him; his peeta (the sacred seat) will represent him; his sandals will represent him; his murtis will represent him.

Question: If we ask the new disciples initiated by this system, ‘Whose disciple are you?” what should they say?

HH Rangapriya Swami: They should say, ‘Srila Prabhupada is my guru.’ Others can be called ritviks and can be respected for their seniority.

Question: As long as ISKCON exists, can this system be followed?

HH Rangapriya Swami: Yes, there is no problem.

Copy of the letter given to ISKCON Bangalore on 11th Jan 1999

I have acquainted myself with the life and message of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada including his message in the letter of July 9th, 1977. I also understand there is some controversy going on among the disciples of the great guru regarding the positions of the diksha guru and officiating acharyas called rtvik acharyas who give diksha as deputees of the original acharya, even as Prince Bharata officiated as the ruler on behalf of Sri Rama’s padukas.

In this connection, keeping in view the spirit of Srila Prabhupada and the continuation of the great tradition given by him, we recommend that the office of the rtvik acharyas should continue as intended by Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada’s system accords a unique position to the acarya by declaring that he should be a Master Yogin, who takes upon himself the spiritual responsibility of the disciples including the destruction of all their sins and deserves worship due to Bhagavan Himself.

The rtvik acharya continue the line of HH Srila Prabhupada, and he should be accorded reverence in accordance with his contributions. But he should not be considered as an object of meditation and worship. Nor should he be considered as infallible. He should be appointed by the governing council and give diksha as a deputee of Srila Prabhupada without violating the letter and spirit of his message.

The rtvik system propounded by Srila Prabhupada does not violate in anyway the shastras’ injunctions.

Signed. Rangapriya Swami.

---

Interview With Sri Bannanje Govindacharya

It may be recalled that HG Vidvan Gauranga Dasa posted a report of his meeting two eminent vaishnavas in Bangalore, namely Vidyavacaspati Sri Bannaje Govindacharya (a grhasta madhva scholar). When devotees of ISKCON Bangalore showed the report to Sri Bananje Govindacharya, he said that the reporting was partial and did not completely represent his views. The devotees continued their discussion with him and it was recorded. Later the interview was transcribed, taken back to him for review so that he is satisfied that we represent his views properly this time. We provide the same here:

Below is an interview with Sri Bannanje Govindacarya, original tape available:

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Meaning of diksha is to give adhikara in a mantra or any system or in a faith. Who can give initiation? In fact if I want to initiate somebody into gayatri, I must be a realised person. Gayatri sakshatkara is the first requirement for a diksha guru. Siddhi or perfection. Mantra siddhi. Otherwise one cannot give mantra diksha to others, according to shastra. So simply giving Diksha and canceling and taking again another diksha – that is all ashastric, not according to shastra… So this is the problem when we institutionalize a faith. We have to face all these problems, because when you institutionalize faith then all the institutional and organizational problems enter and all the organizational problems will come. Actually according to shastra, none of these swamis can initiate… No swami unless he has attained sakshatkar or mantra siddhi he cannot initiate. That is what….told was correct. Unless he has that power to take the sishya into that height, that elevation, initiation becomes a mere mechanical procedure. It has no meaning. If I want to initiate you I must be able to bring you to that plane and you must be able to meditate upon that mantra and that power should be given. Initiation is not mere mechanical procedure. That is a transformation of a power, mantric and spiritual power and a person who has actually no spiritual power how can he give spiritual power to a sisya. It cannot be claimed by a mere post or institutional powers. Initiation is totally different.

ISKCON devotee: The point is the 11 ritviks, only on the assumption that Prabhupada is not on the planet they stopped continuing to be ritviks. Is that correct or wrong? We are saying, ” you don’t have an explicit order. A clear order of the acharya is needed to become a diksha guru. Srila Prabhupada made a system-you stopped the acharya’s order!” We are questioning. They are not able to justify that. So are they correct in their justification or wrong?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No…do they claim that they are no more ritviks?

ISKCON devotee: They say that they are no more ritviks. They are regular gurus. Regular gurus means, as I told you the definition, according to Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, it is very serious thing. It is a very big thing.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes. See that is why I have told this is clash between the organization and the spiritual practice. When the spiritual practices become institutionalized, then the institution has certain… it is totally left to the …you are correct. There is no letter or there is no resolution, any orders. In an institution anything can be changed. The governing body is there and by majority they can vote and they can have a resolution. They can change anything. According to rules and regulations. But that is left to the organizational rules and regulations.

That is what I have told, according to shastra, the religious or spiritual part of diksha – giving diksha, a person who has siddhi – siddhapurusa can give diksha to others. Otherwise it has no meaning at all. It is not a mechanical thing.

ISKCON devotee: So their another argument is that because it is not normal, according to tradition just like son becomes father, it is natural. So naturally disciple becomes guru. This is also natural. So we have become gurus. So if we follow ritvik, because it is non traditional, not in the sampradaya, we stopped practicing it. Is it really apasampradaya? To follow acharya’s ajna?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Is it apasampradaya means here in other sampradayas, particularly in the vaishnava sampradaya or the madhva mutts, their mantra diksha is to be taken by a living guru. It is a tradition. Strictly speaking, diksha even here when a swami gives mantra or upadesha to a disciple, the inner concept is that the living guru is not the real guru. Madhvacharya is there in his body and through living guru the spirit, actually the original spirit of Madhvacharya, the original spirit of living guru that is what is functioning. That concept is there. But a diksha living guru is a must in tradition. It is there. That is why they say apasampradaya. See in all other sampradayas diksha swekara from a living guru is generally accepted in all… see it is in practice even in Madhva mutt.

ISKCON devotee: So Prabhupada appointed these ritviks to do the external aspects of the diksha, like gving mala, spiritual name, etc These are to be done through a living ritviks. So ritviks are living. But the roles are defined and the real aspect of the diksha, giving transcendental knowledge and taking the responsibility of delivering the disciple, Prabhupada continues to do it. In that sense is it apasampradaya?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No we cannot say that. Because what is sampradaya? Sampradaya is again a constitution- a spiritual institution. And it is followed by centuries and centuries by the sisyas. So any system that is in practice for more than 100 years, it becomes sampradaya!

ISKCON devotee: Now since no acharya in the past has formed an international society…

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes, that is why I have told you, sampradaya means also, it is a spiritual constitution, which should not go against the spirit of vedic teachings. That’s all.

ISKCON devotee: So is the ritvik system, taking mala, name, etc from living ritviks and considering Srila Prabhupada as the diksha guru, violating vedic spirit?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No no nothing, nothing. That is not that…

ISKCON devotee: This ritvik system, where Prabhupada in his absence where they act, you know these ritviks as his representatives, and giving, conducting this ceremony while still Prabhupada as the diksha guru, if this process if we continue, is it violating any vedic sastra?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: You see it can be done like this. Everybody must take diksha before the vigraha of Prabhupada.

ISKCON devotee: Prabhupada murthi’s are kept everywhere in ISKCON temples.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: You have a temple of Prabhupada, and before Prabhupada himself, no others can give diksha and these people provide name and mala. The diksha should be in the presence of Prabhupada’s vigraha. That will be better. That would be better. There will be no problem. Just to avoid problems, see so many gurus, they will leave peeta (the sacred seat), they are falling down. Just to avoid this, you take initiation before Prabhupada’s vigraha.

ISKCON devotee: We are actually not saying that this should be practiced because of a reaction for the fall down of gurus. Even if the gurus are not falling down we are saying you should still follow this because it is the acharya’s ajna.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes, I have simply told… This can also be avoided. No, that is not the only reason because in fact that is my concept. People ask me who is your guru. I have been taught by so many swamji’s . I have not been initiated into sanyasa. That is different. People ask me, “You are being an eminent scholar, who is your guru.” Then I used to say, “Madhvacharya is my guru. None else.” I don’t accept anybody else as my direct guru. Even now if I have got any doubt, I put the question before Madhvacharya and he must send the message, the answer to my mind and I don’t ask anybody! So this is a very powerful practice. Taking initiation from mula guru. See these people are instruments, to provide this and that, what ever is required.

ISKCON devotee: For that we are saying, we will respect them and …

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: If that vision is created, it will be a very powerful, very good system. There will be no controversy. All the problems will be avoided.

ISKCON devotee: Will this stop the parampara? They claim that this will stop the parampara.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Why? Taking initiation from mula guru and following the parampara. How can it be stopped?

ISKCON devotee: This is one of their objections. You can’t take from a departed acharya because it will stop the parampara. So who will continue the parampara? That is what they are asking.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: See Guru parampara means, now here is Madhvacharya, (pointing to the disciplic succession listed in Bhagavad Gita As It Is) and then this swami, and his swami, like that 31 swamis are there. So this parampara will be there. Everybody is disciple of guru, Prabhupada. Prabhupada and his disciple, his disciple, his disciple – this parampara will not be there. That is alright.

ISKCON devotee: That is what Pejavar Swami said, “Peeta parampara (the succession of the sacred seat of the institutional head) will not be there. But upadesha parampara will continuue…”

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: There is no problem in that. It is there in practice in Madhva mathas because the guru initiates the disciple. When that tradition is not there, Prabhupada himself is the initiating or diksha guru, then his matha parampara will not be there.

ISKCON devotee: But will that not stop the parampara?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No, no how. No question of stopping. Parampara does not stop. All this in an institution, all seniority, junior swamis, who is to become President, something, this and that. All those problems will arise. Managerial problems and institutional problems may be there but in spiritual practice there is no problem. Here there are two aspects. One is external – institutional, managerial problems. When you build an institution, there should be some constitution, some managerial….

ISKCON devotee: That Prabhupada has said GBC is the ultimate managing authority…

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: And this should not be mixed up with the spiritual practices. It is different.

ISKCON devotee: Now they show the principle, they quote, many places where Prabhupada expressed himself, “I want each of my disciples to become gurus.”

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Anybody can become guru. He can teach vaishnava siddhanta to the masses and he can become guru. To become guru… Giving diksha is not the only method of becoming guru. If I want to become guru, I must teach my disciples and I am guru. My students are there. They give respect to me. They say he is my guru. He taught me this omkar. That is all. Without knowing … Guruhood should come through his knowledge and his practice…..I mean tapasya. It cannot be demanded.

ISKCON devotee: In other words siksha. You can always be siksha guru.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: I can teach others. But diksha guru….well, unless I have that power I cannot give diksha to others. So again how can I claim that I have that power. “You don’t have that power. I will give you that power…” It is all again a controversy. There is no end to this controversy.

ISKCON devotee: According to Madhva siddhanta, can a mahabhagavatha fall down? Uttam adhikari, mahabhagavatha?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: The question is irrelevant. Because if he is a mahabhagavatha, he cannot fall. If he falls down he is not a mahabhagavatha. What is the definition of mahabhagavatha? First we have to know that. According to the Bhagavata purana, a person who has practiced the vaishnava system according to Maha Srimad Bhagavatha and has reached certain level. Then if he is mahabhagavatha, he cannot come down. He cannot fall down. Sometimes it happens, even realised souls have prarabhdha karma. That is also told. Even the realised souls who have seen Narayana face to face, eye to eye, Vishnu sakshat kara is there, after realisation also due to prarabdha karma also some people may fall down. That is there in the scriptures.

Generally mahabhagavatha cannot fall down -

Its very rare – some earth breaking instances -

You leave it, it’s only for argument sake.

Devotee: Do you agree that one can become guru only on the order of his guru? Or can he just become guru? How can he become guru? – giving diksha. Prabhupada says that it is a rule that he has to get an order to continue the parampara. What do you say?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Through guru parampara giving initiation is in practice in so many systems. In Madhva system it is there, in Shankara and Ramanuja system. In all the systems now the person who is authorised to give initiation comes in the peeta (sacred seat of the institutional head). Whoever comes in the peeta is authorised to give. That tradition is there now. And in fact, this is just a managerial system, administrative system. Just to solve the administrative problem, they have adopted this method. Strictly speaking, in the spiritual field anybody can initiate who is siddha purusha and even if not entitled by guru. Traditionally this is not accepted. If I am a mantra siddha, I need not have a sanction from my guru or any tradition. I can initiate anybody. This is sastric. But there are two things – institutional systems is that only the peeta-adhipati (the person presiding over the peeta) guru can initiate. That is the system in the Madhva mutts. In fact only siddha purusa can initiate and he need not be a siddha purusa who has come in the traditional way in the peeta.

ISKCON devotee: But he has to be authorised.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: He is authorised.

ISKCON devotee: If he is a siddha purusa, automatically the authorisation will be there for him.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes, yes. That’s what I am saying. If he is not siddha purusa, though he is there in the peeta, lineage, according to sastra he is not authorised. But the present system accepts that he is guru! But according to the sastra, he need not come in the peeta, if he is a siddha purusa and he is realised, he can give diksha to anyone. There is no sanction of tradition that is necessary to accept him as guru. The only requirement for diksha is I must be a realised person, siddha purusa of that mantra which I am giving you. If it is Vishnu mantra, I must be siddha in that Vishnu mantra or Narayana mantra or whatever it is. This is not only giving mantra upadesa but this is accepting somebody into the fold of a certain system. Then some system must be there. Its again institutionalisation. Some system. Then whatever the tradition says that is to be accepted to accept him into this fold. So all the other sampradayas accept that there is a guru paramapara in the peetas and they are entitled to give diksha. According to sastra anybody can give mudra dharana. I can give mudra to my children. But according to the present practice in the mutts, sampradaya system, they do not accept it. They say, “Only we have the authority. Only we have the authority. We can give mudra dharana. But nobody else…” Some of our swamis say, “These people belong to Uttaradi mutt, they belong to Pejawar mutt..” and so on. Again there is division. “And you cannot take vaishnava diksha from some other swami. I am your mula vidya guru. You take diksha from me.” No it has become a social right. Spirituality has nothing to do with this. This is again the present plight of the muttas. There are two things. One is the social aspect of traditional acceptance, another is spiritual practice.

ISKCON devotee:That’s interesting. So we understand that the spiritual component of diksha Prabhupada retains for himself.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes that is what I am saying. It is safe. If we accept the spiritual diksha is Prabhupada, if we accept that then so many problems will be solved.

ISKCON devotee: According to our Governing Body themselves, they agree that they cannot deliver the souls back to Krishna. It is Prabhupada only that much they agree. The only thing is they don’t want to give Prabhupada the post of diksha guru. Of course now the siddhanta is diluted so much because of the lack of qualified diksha gurus that they are saying that even a kanistha adhikari or madhyama adhikari can become guru. But Prabhupada cannot become diksha guru. His only disqualification is that he is not present with us.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: In other sampradayas they say that only living guru can give diksha. Therefore they are also claiming the same thing. In other sampradayas the diksha guru must be a living guru. He cannot give diksha with his spiritual body, non material body. He must give with his gross material body only – that tradition is there. This is not siddhanta or apasiddhanta. Tradition is a social system. It is nothing to do with the spiritual. Society accepted this just to have a control on disciples from the peeta or matha. Swami should have certain control of the disciples. So they have accepted certain rights – they are his copyrights! So that he can have certain control over the society. This is a social system presently accepted by the spiritual priests. Philosophy and practice have nothing to do with it.

ISKCON devotee: I cannot claim to become regular guru – for that I have to provide evidence. These are the only two questions we are asking them.

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Spiritually you are correct. For the organizational system if there is any thing to be done, that is left to you. I don’t know. If there is any social problem it has to be set right.

ISKCON devotee: In short, is the ritvik system against any vedic system?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: It is neither vedic nor non vedic. Just to have an international contact, Prabhupada himself created this system and he is the final authority. It is not against the preaching of the vedas.

ISKCON devotee: So Prabhupada can remain a diksha guru and these people can conduct just like the ritviks?

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: That can be done. There is no problem in this system. Because it is an international institution it is natural that all the people may not be scholars in sastras or sanskrit. But they will be managerial heads. That is why it is inevitable to accept Prabhupada as diksha guru. It is essential thing to accept him as diksha guru and these are the instruments.

http://iskcontimes.com/eminent-madhva-sampradaya-scholars-support-srila-prabhupadas-ritvik-system

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